The Virtues of Public Service with Bob Gordon

We return to our regularly scheduled EJB Talks this week with Bob Gordon, a Senior Policy Fellow who joined the Bloustein School earlier this year. Dean Shapiro asks Bob, a former New Jersey legislator and BPU Commissioner, about his path to public service. Bob talks about his early days as a policy analyst and how he discovered he wanted to be less behind the scenes and move into the policymaking side. He discusses the successes, missteps, and side steps that eventually led to his 14-year legislative term and eventual BPU role, as well as some key legislation he helped pass to improve accountability and transparency in government. He explained how some of his greatest pleasures and satisfaction came from working with everyday constituents to help them solve their problems. Stuart and Bob wrap up by discussing how students interested in politics and public service should be aware of the negative aspects of public life and always have a backup plan for their future but also be willing to focus on the good they will accomplish if they pursue a career serving the common good.

Transcript

Stuart Shapiro
Welcome to EJB talks. I’m Stuart Shapiro, the Dean of the Bloustein School. And the purpose of this podcast is to highlight the work my colleagues and our alumni in the fields of policy, planning, and health are doing to make the world a better place.

Today we’re going to speak with Bob Gordon, a former state legislator here in New Jersey and a former Board of Public Utilities Commissioner, and currently a fellow here at the Bloustein School. Welcome to the podcast.

Bob Gordon
Ohh, thank you Stuart. I’m, you know, generally thrilled to be here and participating in this.

Stuart Shapiro
Excellent. So long-time listeners know we always start with an origin story question. So I’m going to ask you,  what got you into public service?

Bob Gordon
OK, now I should say that when you’re talking to an ex-politician, there’s a high risk that I could go on for about 40 minutes or. So, but I’ll….

Stuart Shapiro
We’re going to lean heavily on the ex-politician thing here (laughing!)

Bob Gordon
Yeah, I’ll try to be succinct. You know, I think about that. I think it goes back to when I was about, you know, 10 years old or so. I can remember feeling very inspired by John Kennedy’s inaugural speech and you know his urging that that people get involved in America and making it a better place. And also I think, an important factor was some relatives of mine, some cousins I was particularly close to, were very involved in the civil rights movements and later the anti-war movement. And I think that introduced me to public life.

And really, from my earliest days I was always more interested in the public sector than business, for example. My parents weren’t very political, but I just naturally gravitated to it. And of course I came of age in a very tumultuous time. The Vietnam War, the civil rights movement. And there was a lot going on that made me think of the larger world.

Stuart Shapiro
Yeah, I think that’s probably a fairly common story, particularly the Kennedy inspiration with the Peace Corps and and all of that, and the the space race and and everything else that was going on then. Now you took a particular path. As you said you’re an ex-politician. So talk to me a little bit about your political days. What are you most proud of in your political career, particularly in the state legislature?

Bob Gordon
Well, you know, I loved being a legislator and I should say I was… I’m a graduate of a public policy program. I went to the public policy program at Berkeley and got an MPP there in the mid 70s. And I had been very much drawn into the environment movement. A I wanted to work in Washington and I had spent summer internships in Washington during my college years on Capitol Hill and I… after my public policy degree I was invited to join the Congressional Budget Office, which had just been established. I had worked at the Brookings Institution and some of my former colleagues at Brookings had been very involved in the budget reforms of the 70s and created the Congressional Budget Office and the Budget. Committees. So it was easy, relatively easy for me to get a sort of an analyst position at the CBO.

And I spent two years doing that. And I tell you that because I found that I was more interested in being a policymaker than being a policy analyst. I would, you know, I would…. I had a lot of contact with members of Congress and I thought, you know, I think I’d rather do that than be behind the scenes crunching the numbers. And so I made a conscious decision to leave Washington and try my hand at politics. And at the time public policy degrees weren’t very well recognized. So I thought, well, I have to earn a living outside of Washington. I better get a another degree now, so I got a business degree through an abbreviated program at the University of Pennsylvania.

And when I finished in 18 months, I moved back to my hometown of Fairlawn, New Jersey, and started getting involved in local politics. In my second attempt, I got elected to my town council, where I eventually spent 10 years. Became mayor for three years. But my political options were kind of limited because my hometown was in a legislative district that had not elected a Democrat, I think. And actually to this day, it has not elected a Democrat. So I did something really crazy and I ran for Congress.

From, you know, trying to make the leap from the municipal level to Congress. I ran against the line. I ran against the party organization. Lost by 8 to one, burned lots of bridges, was cast out into the wilderness for a number of years. And returned to my private sector activities. I was working for management consulting firms and so I was able to pay my bills. But I really missed public life and in 2011, my hometown was redistricted into a new legislative district. And I was able to convince party leadership to take me back.

My hometown was now the key town in a new district. I wasn’t expected to win, but I won. That’s sort of a long and drawn out history of my early political career. In any case, I spent 14 years in the legislature and to finally get to your question of, what I’m most proud about. I became the chair, in the Senate, of the Legislative Oversight Committee, and during the Christie years there was no shortage of things to investigate. And so I conducted lengthy hearings into the Port Authority after “Bridgegate.”

Stuart Shapiro
Wow.

 Bob Gordon
And advanced legislation, which had to be passed in both New Jersey and New York. I was able to get bills through twice to improve the accountability and transparency of the Port Authority. Both bills were vetoed by Governor Christie and Governor Cuomo. But later use the key elements of that legislation to reform New Jersey Transit, where I where I also held 18 months of hearings on New Jersey Transit. And those reforms were put in place. So I guess I’m very proud of that effort.

There were also situations where you could have an impact on people’s lives, but you know it didn’t attract all that much attention. But I have to say that there were things I did that, where I helped families deal with state issues and I’m very proud of that. And the one situation that that comes to mind is there were during the Christie years an effort to try to bring people back from medical facilities out of state back into New Jersey. It was called “Return Home New Jersey.” It was really an effort to try to maximize Medicaid payments.

But these families had to place their loved ones in facilities out of state because there wasn’t anything in New Jersey that could deal with their problems. These are people who had sometimes multiple conditions that required unique facilities that just weren’t available in New Jersey. And so they might find a place in Wisconsin or Tennessee or someplace that really were providing the kind of care they needed. And so Christie was trying to force these patients back to New Jersey.

And the families came to me and said you know, you’ve got to prevent this from happening. And I teamed up with colleagues on the other side of the aisle, and I’m thinking of Senator Kip Bateman in particular, and we stopped it. And I can remember that when the bill passed, the families came down from the gallery of the legislature and hugged us. And I, you know, I get, I still get kind of teary-eyed at the thought of that. And you know, that’s something that didn’t get any press. It’s, but it’s a kind of thing that a legislator can do that, you know it provides a lot of satisfaction.

Stuart Shapiro
That’s great. We could do a podcast episode on about 5 or 6 different things you mentioned in there. CBO is one of my favorite organizations. I also have a policy degree and worked at OMB for five years. A long, long time ago. And certainly the Bridgegate stuff and God knows, everyone could talk about New Jersey Transit for a long time, especially those of us that use it frequently.

Bob Gordon
Yes.

Stuart Shapiro
I do want to hit your BPU time though. Tell me a little bit about that. Why you made the transition? It sounded like you love the legislature a lot. How come you went to BPU? Is it just as simple as you were asked or was there more to it than that?

Bob Gordon
You know, I wasn’t pursuing this at all. You know, Governor Murphy took office early in 2018 and I got a phone call from his then chief of staff. And I guess I had something of a reputation in the legislature as a policy wonk, which I actually am quite proud of that. And I guess they were looking for someone who might have an interest in energy policy. The governor had an ambitious clean energy program ready to advance. But I was offered and I just thought it was time for something new. I didn’t know all that much about energy policy. I mean it’s really, it’s pretty arcane stuff. I did graduate work in regulatory economics and I didn’t know anything about how electricity markets worked or you know, some really obscure stuff. So, you know, there was an interest in just advancing my policy education. So I joined the the Board of Public Utilities in April of 2018. And I must say it was a bit of a frustrating experience initially. Because I had come from an institution where, you know, individuals could respond to policy issues by shaping some kind of initiative. And advancing it through the process.

At a state commission you really can’t do that. I soon realized that I wasn’t going to be able to shape policy. The staff had already worked out the options. I mean, one of the ramifications of the Open Public Meetings Act is that you can’t have, you know, three commissioners in the same room talking about policy.

Stuart Shapiro
Right.

Bob Gordon
And one of the effects of that is that power shifts to the staff. And they get to decide what the policy options are and put the proposals together and they sort of show up every week in the Commissioner’s Office and say, OK, here’s what you’re voting on. And that was really frustrating for me because I wanted to shape the policy. And I soon realized…you know, it actually probably took me about a year. I realized, you know, I’m not going to be able to, you know, shape the policies. I’m just going to be able to, you know, contribute to the debate and then in the end vote for what the governor wants. I found that that frustrating.

And at some point I decided well, the best way to take advantage of the situation I mean is to view it like being in graduate school and learn as much as you can about energy policy. And the good news is I was there when the governor was advancing really groundbreaking initiatives. Things that no one had ever done before. So to some extent I did have some opportunity to shape policy. I mean, no one had really figured out, how do you bring power from offshore into the grid? And we were, you know, we worked on some things that no one had done before. And so that was very interesting.

Stuart Shapiro
That’s great stuff. And I also have my background in in regulatory policy and it’s interesting for me to hear you talk about the dynamic between the Commissioners and the staff. Because that’s the degree to which politicians and political actors control staff has always been something that’s been a focus of mine. I’m very interested in. I do, you know, see if I’m getting this right. As I think about our students, who will probably go into staff positions largely as they come out of graduate school, those are positions that can have considerable influence from what you’re saying.

Bob Gordon
I mean, I can remember attending an offshore wind conference and turning to a guy named Jim Farris, who led the offshore wind effort at the BPU, and I said you must be very proud of this. And he goes, what do you mean? I said you created an industry in New Jersey.And he really did. And there was, you know, I can think of one staff member who, you know, just ran the solar programs for decades and really was instrumental in shaping the New Jersey solar industry and staff. People can do that.

You know, and there’s certainly great opportunities for new graduates to, you know, to fulfill that kind of role.

Stuart Shapiro
And one of the benefits of that, of course, is that those people, particularly if you’re running the solar program for 20 years, you become an expert in it. And it’s good to have people that are experts doing that in the current climate that is not something that is seen as an attraction always. Having experts play too much of a role in policy. Talk a little bit about your experience with the balance between politics and listening to the public will and expertise. It’s on my mind obviously because of the overall climate that we’re in right now.

Bob Gordon
Yeah, you know, and I don’t know how relevant my comments will be because I think the climate has changed. But when I, you know, I think I was actually a rare bird in the legislature in that I had, you know, formal public policy training, background, in economics. You know, I was a policy wonk. Unlike most of the people I encountered during my political career, who, you know, many lawyers, dentists, funeral directors, you know? You know, I was probably the only member of the legislature who had actually engaged in econometric modeling?

Stuart Shapiro
(laughing)

Bob Gordon
I’m not sure that did anything for me. But what it did do is, you know, I think it… people appreciated the fact that I had some technical expertise. And I think as a legislator, I like to think I had a little bit more weight in the debates? Someone told me yesterday that, you know, we always turn to you on a particular issue because we knew that you understood the nuances and the details. And you know I didn’t appreciate that at the time, but it was nice to hear. I really enjoyed being in politics and being in the legislature because as I alluded to before. I, you know, I liked being able to to craft public policy. There were issues that I would encounter and I just gotvery interested in. I mean, like, the reform of homeowner associations to pick one obscure subject. You know, one out of every seven New Jerseyans lives in a homeowners association. And, you know, there were some… there were homeowners associations that were run like Princeton eating clubs in the 1950s.

Stuart Shapiro
Yes. (laughing)

Bob Gordon
And were crying out for reform. And you know, I latched onto that issue. And you know, spent, you know, a good deal of time working with interest groups and forming coalitions and getting technical experts involved in moving a bill through the process. And I enjoyed that. And I would really encourage, you know, Rutgers students to seriously think about. You know, going the political route and being the policymaker as opposed to the policy analysts. I don’t want to, you know, denigrate the analysts. There’s a critical role for them. But, you know, it can be fun advancing policies.

And, you know, I took a lot of pleasure and satisfaction and serving constituents and just dealing with problems people have, I mean. You know, when a legislator hears about a problem from the constituent, it’s usually when the person’s getting kind of desperate. But legislators really can help people overcome insurance problems and get the health care that they need. Deal with, you know, problems with other government entities. And I had people working for me who were just working full-time on nothing but constituent service and really helping people.

Stuart Shapiro
A well-functioning government has both, right? It has the politicians, and it has the experts and it figures out how to balance those. Let me wrap up by asking you, we are in an era that whether someone wants to be a political actor or a policy analyst to take the two sort of sides that you’ve presented here. There’s a lot of forces out there discouraging public service right now. What do you tell students to try to get them excited about public service, to try to get them to think about dedicating their lives toward that?

Bob Gordon
Well, you know, again, you know the environment today is….you know, inhospitable. I mean, when I was first running you know, there wasn’t social media. I would have a room full of angry people, but I could deal with that. I’m thinking of the Florio tax revolt.

Stuart Shapiro
Ah.

Bob Gordon
But you know, I think politics has gotten nastier. People go on the attack as I don’t think they did when I was first starting out. But the message I would try to convey is that, you know, good people need to step up and put up with all of the, you know, these negative aspects of public life. And just, you know, think about what you can do to help people. And if we don’t have good people doing that, the bad people run things.

Stuart Shapiro
Um hmm.

Bob Gordon
And the other message that I always like to give people who are thinking about a political career. I think is it’s an important one. I tell people and they usually don’t want to hear this. I tell people you should develop credentials in something else besides politics, because there are going to be situations that are going to affect your political career that are beyond your control. You know, if someone runs for President, it wipes out everybody down the ballot. Or you’re asked to do things that you feel uncomfortable about. And it’s important to know that there’s something you can go back to. A law firm or a business or a dental practice or teaching or whatever. And knowing that you know, you have got something else to do. You don’t want to become a political pilot fish sort of, you know, swimming among the sharks looking for the crumbs that are out there. You want to be able to know that you’ve got something else to do. And you know what I always wanted to do is move back and forth between the private and public sector. You know, when opportunities arose. And it’s hard to do. But I was. I was able to do that.

Stuart Shapiro
Now there’s a lot of merit to the idea of the citizen legislator, right? It goes pretty far back in, in, in our Republic there.

Bob Gordon
Yes. There’s something they said about institutional memory. But you know it’s yes, I agree.

Stuart Shapiro
Both both are important for sure. Bob, thanks so much for coming on the podcast today. It’s been great.

Bob Gordon
This has been fun thank you. Thank you very much. I enjoyed it!

Stuart Shapiro
Also a big thank you to Tamara Swedberg and Karyn Olsen who make the podcast happen every week. We’ll see you next week with another guest and another expert from the Bloustein School. Until then, stay safe.